Of character deaths, writers with balls, and the reset button.

[castalia]

Okay, I'm gonna come out and say something in response to a lot of what I've been reading in SGA fannish circles. Then I have a bit of a survey question for all of you.

I've seen a LOT of people going on about how they hope Carson isn't brought back because it would undermine the emotional and narrative impact of killing off a main character. That they're impressed by the writers being brave enough to do that. That's a fair point. However, permanent death or not, I think this is another example of the writers taking the easy route and claiming it to be this bold thing they've done.

You know what would impress me? If they'd had the balls to kill off a character like Sheppard. The lead male, the guy who's first-billed. Something that pretty much never happens in television.

Killing Carson is similar to what the SG-1 writers did back when they killed off Janet Frasier. They patted themselves on their collective back and told us they were doing it for the audience's own good, showing realism and giving us a patronizing life lesson that sometimes our favorite characters die. But they took the easy way out with killing Janet - sure, she was a beloved character and a fan-favorite. But was she a MAIN character, a lead? No. She was recurring and the show moved on without her, sparing only a few brief tears at the time. They also lost a lot of the emotional impact by spending the entire two-parter pretending it was Jack who was really dead, thus relegating Janet to the "better, more acceptable loss" category. Now the SGA writers have killed off a fan-favorite, someone who was recurring and while yes, he was moved up to main character status and put in the opening credits, he was still the safe option. The main team is still intact, the top-billed characters still there.

So, on to the question. Can anyone think of a series where a lead or POV character has been killed? I'm talking permanent death, no reset button, no bringing the actor back as a different character (Hercules and Angel are out, in this case) or as a spirt guide, hologram, AU version, etc.

I know a lot of people cite Joss Whedon shows when talking about this stuff, but I wouldn't call Tara or Joyce lead characters and I'm unsure about Doyle. Cordelia might count, but the mystical weirdness may count against it. Wesley, Anya, Wash, and Book all died in finales where they knew that was it, they wouldn't be making any more of the shows, so I'm not counting those either. Those are safe deaths, b/c while they may cause fannish uproars, the shows don't have to go on afterwards, and Buffy and Angel remain alive at the end. This will take a number of shows out of the running, I think. Finales are safe times to kill off characters.

The best early example I can think of is Henry Blake from M*A*S*H. While not first-billed, he was still a lead character and his departure is considered an important moment in TV history. The show survived long after this, but the uproar caused by the tragic nature of his death supposedly prompted the writers to avoid ever killing off a character in such a manner ever again. Still, even in this case it was prompted by the actor wanting off the show.

OZ was fairly good at what the TV Tropes wiki calls "Killed Off For Real". Any number of lead characters were killed off without warning. This may just be an HBO thing, as Deadwood has done this with Hickok.

Surprisingly, ER has a number of lead deaths under its belt. Dr Greene was first-billed back in the day, wasn't he? They may have to lose some points for stupid deaths, however, as having a helicopter fall on someone is just silly.

Blake's 7 gets an honorable mention for killing off its title character and continuing on for a while without him. He did come back for the finale, but as he died again for real along with everyone else, they get points for their "kill 'em all!" bravado.

Farscape gets points for Zhaan, but D'Argo was a finale death and everyone else came back eventually.

NYPD Blue killed off a few lead detectives, though I don't remember their names. Whoever Jimmy Smits played.

NCIS killed Kate, who was IIRC second-billed and the female lead character. She was in the next two episodes as a sort of hallucination while her team members remembered her, but it was definitely a permanent death.

Any others? I'm especially looking for title or first-billed characters. Now that I've started listing them I've become incredibly curious about this. It'll also tie in rather well with this year's blingfest theme, so call it a research project. Unsurpisingly, cop shows and procedurals seem better at this than your average skiffy show.

Comments

[destina.livejournal.com]

I'm completely drawing a blank on anything but finale and not-final deaths -- like Xena in the finale of her show, or Iolaus (Hercules) and Daniel (SG-1), who eventually came back. Oh, wait! I can think of one. In Deep Space Nine, they did kill off Jadzia Dax, a lead character (and wow, was that traumatic, because I loved her), and then brought back the Dax symbiote in a new host in the last season, but Jadzia was definitely dead. So that counts.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Hm, interesting. The symbiote thing is two characters in one, right? That should count, at least for half of it :)

[destina.livejournal.com]

The host is a distinct being, rather like in SG-1 with the Tok'ra, though the culture is completely different from SG-1. So when Jadzia died, it's rather like when Jacob Carter died. No one was like, nooooo, Selmak! It was about losing Jacob. *g* Jadzia's death was sorta like, 'nooo, Jacob!' to the power of 10 million, because she was fairly popular.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

That should definitely count, then. Bringing the symbiote back isn't really like bringing the character back, especially if it's with a different actress. Thanks!

[icepixie]

Well, Doctor Who killed off a few companions here and there. Then again, does anyone really care about Adric? ;)

Forever Knight, a show about vampires, killed off damn near everybody in the finale, but they also killed off Nick's detective partner, Schanke, at the end of the second season. Out of the five main characters, he was probably the most expendable as far as the series arc was concerned, but the actor was second- or third-billed in the credits.

Ballykissangel killed off one of its two leads at the end of the third season. The other one went off in a depression, never to be seen again. They had a revolving door of lead characters for the next three years, I think.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Hee, I thought about Adric but he might count as what the wiki called "The Scrappy" - a character so hated no one cares when/if they get bumped off.

I've not seen the other two, so thanks for the info. Ballykissangel certainly sounds unique in its format.

[icepixie]

Yeah, I certainly didn't care about Adric's death. *g*

Ballyk's excess of leads is more a BBC thing than a Ballyk thing; seems like over there, you can't get them to stay for longer than a couple seasons before they want to move on. It's the damnedest thing. AFAIK, the creator wanted the original leads to stay past the third season, but they didn't want to, and so the creator sent them out with a bang. (Literally. Assumpta was electrocuted by faulty wiring. Peter, a priest who loved her and was about to leave the priesthood to marry her, understandably didn't want to stick around after that. But the actors got engaged after that, so...yay?)

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

I think I know only one person who does. *pokes shanola22* Hee.

Hm, good point. I've noticed the high turnover rate with a lot of BBC shows, at least the ones that run that long. That seems a bit like overkill on the creator's part, but I suppose it makes for interesting drama ;)

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

Blackadder (and everyone else pretty much) gets killed off at the end of Blackadder Goes Forth

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Yes, but that's a finale death. And they did that with every series then brought them back for the next ones, so while I love it, it won't count for this list.

[lauraspeak.livejournal.com]

The only ones I could think of were Buffy & Angel ones that you already mentioned, and as you said, most were finale deaths. I was going to mentioned Doyle as he never did come back. From what I understand, it was planned from the beginning for him to die, so I don't know how you want to count that.

In same vein I was also going to mention Cordelia because when she actually died in Season 5 it seemed permanent. Oh, where does Fred on Angel stack up? I mean, Amy Acker was still there, but she was a different character. Illyria retained Fred's memories and could turn herself into Fred, but Fred was dead and her soul destroyed.

I didn't know you watched NCIS... Anyway, that is also another example of the actor wanting to leave the show.

Granted I haven't seen the portion of Farscape, but from my reading it appaears that Zhaan only came back in AU kind of ways, but I understand it was left open that she could come back. But again, the actor wanted to leave.

All the deaths on BSG have been safe, I think, too...

I used to watch the first season of Close to Home and they killed Christian Kane's character at the end of the season, but he barely had screentime so, meh.

My mum watches Ghost Whisperer and they killed off the best friend at the end of the first season. She was around the first (and maybe the second, I'm not sure) episode of the next season as a ghost but then she was gone.

Oh! Law & Order the Original killed off Jill Hennessy's (sp?) character. She was the second of the revolving ADA's but the only one killed off.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Actually, I find it even better if Doyle's death was planned out. Most mid-series character deaths seem to stem from actors wishing to leave. I never watched Angel very much, so I was unsure when Cordelia actually died for good.

Fred...I'd call it a bit of a cop-out, b/c the actress stayed.

I certainly agree that all of the BSG deaths so far have been safe ones. The only character from the main credits to die has been Boomer, and she of course got to come back due to Cylon status. We have two of those anyway ;)

Thanks for the others. I've never seen the first two and only bits and pieces of Law and Order.

That's a gorgeous icon, btw. Mm, Crichton.

[lauraspeak.livejournal.com]

From everything I have read, Doyle's death appears to have been planned. Granted, I haven't done extenstive reading, but but all I have read in regards to Doyle's death... Apparently, Glenn Quinn and David Boreanaz even were good friends. Of course, there were lots of Bring Back Doyle campaigns on the 'net, but since it was planned, it never happened.

Then when Glenn Quinn actually died, it was just very eerie.

Christian Kane's character on Close to Home was definitely a safe death, so I wouldn't count it. But I would count the Ghost Whisperer death, and it seems, another planned one.

Oh man, my family and I used to watch Law & Order reruns all. the. time. I think I've seen Seasons 1 to about 11ish. TNT ♥'s L&O. I don't watch so much now, but sometimes when there's nothing else on. Plus, Jerry Orbach. & hearts;

Hee, the icon gorgeously made by samauri, and I suppose we should give Ben some credit too. ;-)

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

The planning thing is very cool, so I may count that. And the Ghost Whisperer, if she was that much of a lead character.

Hee, half of my flist seems to adore Jerry Orbach. *g*

And yeah, we'll give Ben a little credit for being so pretty.

[lauraspeak.livejournal.com]

Hmm, there were only three regular characters on Ghost Whisperer. She was the best friend and kind of the safe death, but I don't think anyone saw it coming.

I'm glad you replied to this comment so I could remember to mention Lost. I don't watch it any longer, but with the return of the new season getting a lot of buzz, it reminded me that I wanted to mention it to you in this thread. That show is definitely not afraid to randomly axe characters, and it's kind of hard with such a large cast to judge who is safer. I would say, from what I watched, they maybe kind of killed safer characters, but all the characters have their following, and it's really kind of a hard call.

Hee, my fav part of L&O is the beginning when Jerry Orbach says something deadpan. :)

[delle.livejournal.com]

La Femme Nikita killed of Birkoff in the middle of (last full) Season Four; altho at the time it was filmed I believe they hadn't been told the show wouldn't be renewed but the smell was in the air as the writers desperately tired to show the PTB how "versatile" the show could be.

The actor (Matthew Ferguson) actually remained on the show, as the convenient long-lost twin (EW EW EW). Although Michael and Nikita were The Leads, the show really was an ensemble piece with 6 main characters, one of which was Birkoff.

Madeline (Alberta Watson) was killed in the Season Four finale, when the show was cancelled (we won't talk about the abortion that was the short 5th Season, shall we?)

What about writing off/killing Edith Bunker?

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'd almost completely forgotten about All in the Family. That's probably one of the best examples out there, thanks. That episode still makes me cry.

[wemblee.livejournal.com]

From what I heard, the death of Jenny Calendar, while she wasn't one of the Core Scoobies, shocked a lot of BTVS fans.

I can't blame writers for only killing characters when it's "safe" -- those actors are contracted, and if they're doing good work, why put that actor out of a job? However, when they pat themselves on the back for being "risky," like you said, then it gets annoying.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Hm. That was Giles's teacher girlfriend, right? Not in the main credits so I doubt I'd list her, but I suppose the manner of her death more than anything was shocking.

*nods* It's that attitude that gets me, for sure. I certainly don't mind them playing it safe when they obviously have a winning combination of talent and don't want to rock the boat. But killing them off all at once or at the end of a series and then claiming to be daring just grates on a person.

[writerlibrarian]

The one show where no one is safe that I can think of is Spooks aka MI-5. They kill or take out at least two regular characters a season.
And no one is safe in my opinion. Yes, it sometimes comes from the actor wanting to leave but it's often jarring and effective. The beauty of season 5 cliffhanger is that both characters in peril survived. That was very very surprising but in season 6 I wouldn't bet on Adam making it to the end of the season alive. Nope.

Zaff was supposed to drop dead in the last episode but got a reprieve. For how long who knows. We already had lost Colin and Ruth this season I guess losing Zaff would have been too much.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Damn, that's a ruthless series. I've not seen it, but I think it may be up for download on one of my DL comms. I'll have to check it out.

[deborak]

To go back a ways, the old tv show Beauty and the Beast killed off Katherine then went another full season, so I think that counts.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I remember that. Fans weren't very happy with that decision, as I recall. Definitely counts.

That is one delicious icon, btw.

[amedia.livejournal.com]

Blakes 7 killed off major characters right and left. They started out with six protagonists (the ship's computer was originally counted as one of the Seven) and two antagonists. Over the four years it was on they killed Gan (protagonist), Travis (antagonist), and Cally (protagonist). Gan was not as major as some of the other characters, but Cally had been a very major (and sympathetic) character. Even the ship's computer, Zen, had a touching death scene.

Two of the original protagonists simply disappeared at the beginning of the third season; one (Jenna) was never heard from again, while the other (the "Blake" of the title) didn't turn up again until the finale. The only original characters remaining in the final season were Avon, Vila (protagonists) and Servalan, now renamed Sleer after faking her own death (antagonist).

This is all aside from the infamous finale, in which it appeared that the entire cast of protagonists, along with the newly-returned Blake, bit the dust.

...

There were two Doctor Who companions who died before Adric; I think their names were Sara Kingdom and Cassandra, but I'm not 100% sure. I used to know this stuff like the back of my hand. :-(

...

The character of Leo on West Wing, a central character, died in the last season because the actor who played him died.

It was strongly hinted that Yemana on Barney Miller had died along with Jack Soo, but never stated outright.

Neither of these was a deliberate decision by TPTB, though, so I don't think they fall under your heading.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

I gave B7 an honorable mention, but they should probably get the full marks for the body count alone. I'd forgotten about Cally, but I still love that finale (I'm going to stick with the "everybody dies" interpretation, despite Paul Darrow's horrific post-Gauda Prime novel...*shudder*).

I loved both Leo and Yemana, but yeah, actor deaths go in a whole other category, I think.

Man, I haven't seen some of these shows in ages. You make me want to marathon them as soon as possible. *g*

[amedia.livejournal.com]

Blake's 7 gets an honorable mention for killing off its title character and continuing on for a while without him.

How did I miss this the first time through?

Blake didn't actually die between the second and third seasons. He just vanished. That's why Avon spent the third and fourth seasons obsessively looking for him.

Paul Darrow's horrific post-Gauda Prime novel...*shudder*).

Oh, yes! Avon: A Terrible Aspect, called by many, Avon: A Terrible Novel. :-)

I read oodles of B7 fic back in the day, including lots of post-Gauda Prime, but yeah, I think the most obvious interpretation is that they all died.

Man, I haven't seen some of these shows in ages. You make me want to marathon them as soon as possible. *g*

*satisfied grin* Ah, my work here is done.

(using my H/D icon in honor of yours, and in honor of Yemana, and in honor of Levitt now, too)

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Blake didn't actually die between the second and third seasons. He just vanished. That's why Avon spent the third and fourth seasons obsessively looking for him.

Ah, you're right. Thanks for the reminder. That'll count as another finale death, but I'll give them the points for Cally especially. She was cool.

Oh, yes! Avon: A Terrible Aspect, called by many, Avon: A Terrible Novel. :-)

Heeeeeee. How very apropos. I never could finish the damn thing.

*satisfied grin* Ah, my work here is done.

Brat ;P

(using my H/D icon in honor of yours, and in honor of Yemana, and in honor of Levitt now, too)

I love that icon, b/c it's all too true.

[wishfulaces.livejournal.com]

Are you saying that Doctor Who doesn't count? 'Cos, I mean, changing the character pretty drastically every three years or so and keeping the series running for 40+ years has to be some kind of accomplishment, even if the character doesn't "die off" per se...

What about Star Trek: DS9? Jadzia Dax permanently died at the end of the sixth season--granted, it's kinda another DW-like situation, since Ezri Dax showed up.

I feel like I'm missing some really obvious show and will have to smack my own forehead when I think of it, but I can't for the life of me think of what it could be.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Oh, certainly it's an accomplishment, but I'm not sure it fits the criteria I'm looking for. Every Doctor is different but it's still The Doctor.

Someone else pointed out Dax, and while I'm not very familiar with DS9, that does sound like it counts.

Most of the obvious deaths I can think of are all finale deaths. But yeah, there must be something else.

[amedia.livejournal.com]

feel like I'm missing some really obvious show

I have that feeling too! Of course, TNG killed off Tasha Yar in the episode "Skin of Evil," but that was because the actress wanted out. They brought the character back once in an alternate-universe ep ("Yesterday's Enterprise"), and then brought the actress back again to play the half-Romulan daughter of the alternate-universe character (the daughter describes her mother's death, so they actually managed to kill Tasha Yar *twice*).

Horatio Hornblower killed off Archie Kennedy (*sniff*), but I'm not sure if that was in the books.

Richie got killed off in Highlander. He had been a major character in the first season, but by the time he died he was more of a recurring guest.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Archie! Of course, that's one thing I was certainly forgetting. He wasn't even a fully fleshed out character in the books (just a random "Midshipman Kennedy" in a single scene) and it wasn't b/c the actor wanted to leave. Of course, it was insisted upon by Forester's estate, so it wasn't a voluntary decision by the writers, but it still caused plenty of uproar.

Aw, Richie. I liked him. :(

[wishfulaces.livejournal.com]

Kennedy wasn't even in the HH books, but in the books they did kill off Bush, so...

And yeah, still can't think of who I might be missing. *sigh*

[chazzbanner.livejournal.com]

The first one I remember is Mark Harmon's character on St. Elsewhere. He was a young hot-shot surgeon/lothario. He caught AIDS I think and died pretty quickly (this was the early 80s so that wasn't unrealistic). I'm pretty sure he was first-billed. But, he was killed off because Harmon wanted to leave the show. Does that count? :-)

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

I don't think I'd end up with anyone left if I discounted all the instances where the decision was made b/c an actor wanted to leave. *g* So yeah, that should definitely count. Thanks, I've never seen that show so no way would I have thought of it.

[fan-eunice.livejournal.com]

Homicide killed off Crosetti (*snifflesnifflesob*) in the first episode of season 3.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

That show broke me so many times. *sniffs with you and hands over the box of tissues* Thanks.

[amedia.livejournal.com]

Let's not forget Kenny! (on South Park)

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

*snicker* Talk about a repeat offender ;P

[gritkitty.livejournal.com]

Jimmy Smits' character, Bobby Simone, died in NYPD Blue. I used to watch the show regularly, and his death was *hard*. A few seasons later, another lead detective died, killed by the mob and only found months later.

The ER death of Dr. Romano (sp??) *was* silly, though satisfying; he was an asshat, and I think every was just as glad he died. But Dr. Green? That was another *ow*. Mondo tears. Yes, I cried like a girl -- shut up.

Oh, one of the DAs died in Law & Order, killed in a car accident. Lenny and drinking was involved.

Also, I keep telling nestra that Zelenka is, or was until Carson bought it, the leading contender for "appealing secondary character we can kill off during sweeps week." I still wouldn't be surprised.

Oh, oh! And in Master and Commander! The Hundred Days, I believe it was. My favorite character, dead dead dead! SO fucking shocking. *sob*

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Simone! That's the name, thanks. The next one was the guy played by Ricky Schroder, right? I've only seen bits and pieces, but I remember Simone's death scene in the hospital. Very sad.

Hee, I will not mock for tears shed at death scenes. Not after my own bawling session during the Farscape mini.

Also, I keep telling nestra that Zelenka is, or was until Carson bought it, the leading contender for "appealing secondary character we can kill off during sweeps week." I still wouldn't be surprised.

:( I hope not. I find the scientist characters so much more engaging than much of the "main" cast, so I don't want to lose any more of them.

Oh, oh! And in Master and Commander! The Hundred Days, I believe it was. My favorite character, dead dead dead! SO fucking shocking. *sob*

Are you talking about Diana?

[gritkitty.livejournal.com]

No, not Diana, though I hated losing her. I liked her. Her death was fitting, however.

No, I'm talking about Bonden, though I hope no one reading this ever intends to read the book. His death was an absolute fucking shock. I've never been so gut-punched by a literary death before.

. . . I guess his death was fitting, too. Both he and Diana died doing what they loved best.

I'll be crying into my grog wine over in the corner, thanks.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Oh God, yeah. I was never fond of Diana but I loved Bonden to pieces. I'd forgotten exactly which book killed him, but I agree, I wasn't expecting it. Billy has mentioned in a few interviews that if they do indeed film the next M&C movie, he may have to die in it. If it happens, I'll be sobbing in the theatre.

*shares the tissues*

[krzykat.livejournal.com]

The show McLeod's Daughters killed off Claire (Lisa Chappell--who should be recognizable for her roles in HTLJ), one of the two leads, and I believe the show went on for at least two more seasons-- ok I just checked, it's up to season 7 and I'm trying to see if the other lead is still on the show. Unfortunately WE stopped playing it after the third season when they killed off Claire. It was an Australian or NZ show. From what I can tell, the other lead has also left the show, plus the male lead that she was coupled up with, but who knows.

Of course of the two sisters, Claire was my favorite.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

I've not heard of that one, but I do like Lisa Chappell so would love to give the series a try if I can find it. Was it actually airing in the US?

[krzykat.livejournal.com]

WE aired it for 3 seasons in the US. From the website it looks like you can order the DVDs, I wonder if they ship to the US. Dean O'Gorman appeared in seasons 4 and 5, I heard, but WE isn't airing those. :(

[coppercowries.livejournal.com]

Hello lovely! I left a message with your brother but I'm sure he didn't give it to you. I thought you might like to pop over tonight or tomorrow.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Aw, damn. No, he didn't give it to me, but that's probably b/c I've been out literally all day and haven't seen him until just now. This is the first time I've been online all day so I didn't see your message here, either. Sorry about that. I got up early to go walking at Red Clay and then ran about doing various things. I got some gorgeous red wool I'm going to knit into a scarf.

I can't come over tonight b/c I'm totally exhausted and about to go to bed as soon as I check mail and such. Exercise is good but tiring! I was supposed to go to lunch with mum tomorrow, but if that's the only time you're free I could maybe switch days with her?

[coppercowries.livejournal.com]

That's all right dumpling, I've been busy today myself ^^ If you'd like to do lunch tomorrow, that's probably the first day I'll have off until next Monday or so...Sandra's having her surgery and will be gone for upwards of two months, which means six days a week for me prolly from tomorrow on.

[castalianspring.livejournal.com]

Ah, fun. Okay, I'm ready for lunch any time, so let me know when is good for you. I'll ring you around 12 or 12:30 if I don't hear back.